Tuesday, November 23, 2004

More Hmong

I was a little hot last night when I penned the post on the Wisconsin shooting. In fact, after reading it this morning, I almost pulled. That would have been dishonest and I don't think I really stepped over a line.

I am in a calmer frame of mind and more information has come to light today.

First off, Mr. Chai Vang had an appropriate bail set: 2.5 million dollars. That means his ass is going to stay parked. Good.

Secondly, he claims that the white hunters fired the first shot and that it was racially motivated based on the epitaths they were spewing. That remains to be seen. There is the fact that there was only one rifle reported for 20 hunters that were staying on that cluster of land. That can be seen several ways. Either it was impossible for them to muster any kind of firepower, given they only had one firearm in their posession, or it is impossible to believe that 20 licensed hunters would go on a private land hunt with one gun.

It gets weirder and weirder.

Surprisingly, of today's copy, CNN has the most balanced report. Yesterday it was reported all over the place that Mr. Vang had brandished a gun in the presence of law enforcement while vowing to murder his wife. Today, of course, we are more concerned with the Hmong community at large. Also, I've actually not yet seen a decent article about the dead and their families.

Regardless, threatening to kill your wife while holding a firearm...well let's just say I wouldn't want to share a range with the man.

On to the multi-culti aspect, which I knew would blow up, we have this from the Capitol Times story:

State Sen. Mee Moua, one of two Hmong legislators in Minnesota, rejected the idea that cultural differences played any role in the shooting.
"He's probably crazy," she said.
She acknowledged that Hmong-Americans feel racism on a daily basis, but "that doesn't mean you kill people."
"We're all just speculating that may have been a trigger for him," Moua said. "We're all searching for answers."

So he says these killings were not racially incited but then goes on to say that they may have been. I have become to appreciate lately how only white people can be racist. If the group of hunters fired on him first, it will be a racially motivated crime. If he gunned down eight people in cold blood, it will "have been a trigger for him."

I don't think we're getting all of the facts on this yet, and I will probably withold judgement until I find out more.

At this point though, the low-down is 5 people were carried out in bags, 3 people on stretchers, and one guy walked out of the forest with an empty rifle.

The other thing is the fuel this gives to the Brady types. An SKS fired rapid fire with a high capacity magazine can kill 6 people, including a child. On the other hand, hunters and sportsmen are just as crazy as any other militant gun owner.

It is a tragedy that needs to be resolved with the proper people being held to account and it is also, well, just a bad hunting season story a couple of months after the AWB died.

Wait and see.

Update: Say Uncle has a very nice round-up on the whole incident. Also, thanks for the link. It's always gratifying to get a link from the big guys.

CHAI VANG acted upon Self defense and I just think that they deserved what they got. Honestly, I would have done the same thing if they had shot at me. In his mind, I believe, he thought they were going to kill him. Why else would they have fired two shots at him? Common sense, why would a "person" shoot someone else without cause? That doesn't add up, they must have done something to him to make him act in self defense. Yes, they shot at him, why would he "sound so self incriminating" in his report if he had done it out of anger, rampage? He was only letting the truth come out. But it is a white man's world, and they are ONLY up for their people. So I stand with mine. You would think that living in the 21st century that "CAUCASIANS" born in the United States of America would act as leaders. That they would take the pride in showing and demonstrating leadership. But, no. In reality, they are just some racist motherfuckers. I am glad that they got shot at. & if I sound racist, oh well, why? I have the same rights as those who tried to kill Chai Vang and then are still looked upon as "the innocent." That's bullshit, and GOD sees all. Chai Vang won't be the one to burn in the hot ashes of hell, but the WHITE people. I hope they all died a slow, tormenting, and torturing death that they surly deserved.
Anonymous? you are a fucking moron.

"I hope they all died a slow, tormenting, and torturing death that they surly deserved."

that says it all. fucking moron.
You have no idea who shot first! No one deserves to be shot and killed!! 6 people are dead! Who in there write mind would kill 6 people who were unarmed? They found one gun and when people came with guns he ran. What does that say?? He also changed his story What does that say? You must not be from WI. People In Wis are allot more caring then in MN and I have lived in both states. You just don't see that kind of thing take place there and not in that area!! People are very close! Vang is full of shit and he should be shot just like he did to them!! People that didn't even know the victims are sad. I hope Vang rots in HELL!!
Hello. I just would like to say a few things. I stumbled upon this site as I was looking up todays events with Chai Vang. The reason that I am interested in this is because I live here in Rice Lake WI where the 6 people who were killed and the 2 people who were injured are from. I had my own family of hunters in the woods the day that Chai Vang lost his mind. I say that loosely. There are a few things that I would like to clear up. One is that the reason they only had one gun between a group of 20 hunters is...There was only one set of hunters in the woods actually hunting when they noticed Mr. Vang (definately more respect than I should give him) sitting in a fellow hunters' stand. So..there was only ONE gun needed in the woods at that time. When the altercation happened with Vang and a couple of other hunters came out of the cabin, they had no reason to bring out weapons. And again...after Vang began his massacre and the others came out after recieving a call for help, they weren't thinking anything that bad was happening out there, so they did not bring weapons. They left 2 younger hunters inside the cabin and went to find out what was going on. One of the boys was a nephew and a son of some who were getting killed in the woods. I know that one of the hunters that survived said that one of the land owner (who died) did say something to Vang after he refused to leave that wasn't nice. But when someone isn't listening to you and you needed the stand for your family for the days hunt and you started out trying to be nice, you tend to raise your voice a bit. And he said some profane things as well. Which isn't shocking. But he wasn't going to shoot at Mr. Vang. I know this because he was an upstanding member and business owner in our community. He was prideful in our tradition of hunting and excited to be hunting with his sons and nephews and friends. The son who was screaming "Help Me!! Help Me!!" as Vang chased him down and shot him 4 times in the back. The friends who were shot of the 4 wheeler 3 times each in the back as they were trying to get away, not be confrontational. One of the people on that ATV that was shot off of it and hit 3 times in the back was a woman. Not just a woman, but a daughter, who's father was wounded and lie next to a tree and watched his daughter get slaughtered along with a close friend. You tell me that these 6 people deserved to die and that you hope that they had a slow death and rot in hell. Well...I believe that you should get the facts straight before you pass judgement. I know that there are a lot of white people with problems. I know the same is true about every race of humanity. I am not going to side with a murderer just because I might demean my race. It is more demeaning to my race to have me side with the murderer than it is to accept that there are bad people in every bunch, and that not all peoples are worthy of acceptance. That no matter what "race" you are there are bad and good. But just because you are Hmong, doesn't mean what Chai Vang did was deserved by those lives he shattered that one cherished opening deer season weekend. It will forever haunt this community. I don't condemn all Hmongs for the action of this one sick individual. Just as I don't condone the behavior of all Whites. I think it's wrong to do so. Please just know that the people that were affected here were good people. Mr. Crotteau and his son Joe, who were the co-owners of a father/son business, left behind a wife, a mother, a daughter, a sister, a son and a brother. Shattered a family. Mr. Laski who was the mananger of a building center left behind a wife and children...3 that I know of. Ms. Willers was engaged to be married, as was Joe Crotteau. Mr. Drew was well known an loved in this area and left behind lots of family. Mr. Roidt was a fun loving individual who was always ready for anything. He was up to working or playing with children. Mr. Hesebeck and Mr. Willers were both very nice men. This tragedy should not have happened. Please forgive me if I have offended anyone. That is not my intention. My intention is to spread some light on this very shadowed, very horrific event. Please read all you can about the ENTIRE case. Not just that you chose to see. Read all the details. Not just those you hope to hear. Thank you.
Thank you for that last comment.

There has been noticeably little reporting on the damage that was wrought by this incident.

The AP story on the funerals was merely names and dates.
Everyone has to add their 2cents in on this particular story, so here's mine. This is an opinion..so don't get your underwear in a bunch ladies and gentlemen. Yes, it's true that nothing justifies killing anyone. I completely agree with that, however, I also believe there's a better way to tell someone to get off your damn land. Name-calling is just oh so childish. I bet if it was a "white" man who happened to shoot a family of "hmongs" nothing would become of it. No widespread news coverage...just an honorable mention shall we say? That's funny. Everyone has a breaking point. You can only push someone so far before they break and I guess Chai Vang finally found his. It's too bad that those white folks had to die...but hey, death happens everyday so stop feeling sorry for those idiots. They look like a bunch of stupid, ugly, redneck farmers anyway. Join them if you feel so bad for them. People I work with that it wouldn't be funny if it happened to people I know and loved. Well, guess what? It didn't! So now what? Everyone has a breaking point. You can only push someone so far before they break. Looks like Chai reached his. Well, folks it's been a pleasure stating my opinion. Happy hunting!
Hello again. I wanted to share a link with you folks about the incident. It is the most recent one. It saddens me that there was so much racial tension on the other blogging session about this that it had to be closed. I would have posted this there. I think, totally, we all have to be a little more grown up about this and realize that not EVERY issue needs to end up in a race issue. The same result would have been happening if it had been any race of murderer. That is what Chai Vang is, a murderer...whether he was provoked or not, called names or not, he should have had the self-control (military trained or not) to walk the hell out of the woods...not shoot it up and kill 6 people and wound 2 others. Especially being militarily trained he should have recieved that self-control training. My father was a recon marine that fought fierce hand to hand combat in VietNam. He was trained to kill. However, he did not decide to do so to a group of people who ever pissed him off. My dad also hunted plenty. He was also a Polish person who took a lot of ribbing about his nationality. He never shot up a group of individuals for ever calling him a dumb polack. You learn self control, you learn when and where and in what situations to use your "talent". Because being a trained killer for the military is a talent. It takes a special breed of person and for that they should be honored. But with Mr. Vang, he broke that honor by forgetting his self control and going on this killing spree. This isn't a 3rd world country where these things happen daily. If people such as Vang have that little self control, maybe they shouldn't be here. Maybe they should go to a 3rd world country where these types of situations are normal. But here in America, things are not like that. I am not a racist type of person. I do not separate color or nationality. People are people and some people just choose to make mistakes...Because Vang is Hmong, doesn't mean I am discriminating against him because of that. I am discriminating against him because of what he did to my community members. Thank you for listening. Here is the link......
while reading these comments...i thought i would leave mine also....the mojority of people seem to be pointing fingers at mr.vang....not knowing the whole story...no one really knows what happend at the time....there were no witnesses...i don't think anyone has the right to defend any one's side....for the people who thinks that mr.vang was just crazy and shot those people for the heck of it then they should think twice.....i am a hmong too...and what mr. vang did was a total disgrace to the hmong people....at first mr. vang had told a different story that he didnt shoot them....but feeling guilty, he admitted the truth....he told the media everything that occured...he told them how he chased some of them down and shot them....im prettie sure that there was some racial slurs that had been spat at him....and if the victims were the ones who shot at him first, it was probably the reason why he fired up....but the thing is that no one knows the real story....u cant say that chai's story is any less true than the victim's....i just hope the media will seek the truth and a fair trial for mr.vang....at this moment i'm very heartbroken...why?....i have a friend who told me that his uncle went to the library and sat next to a while male....and the white male looked at him and said "i don't want to sit by you, you might kill me." i cant believe someone would say that to another hmong person just becus a hmong person had murdered 6 people....it's a sad thing for me to hear....pls dont call us names or tell us to go back to where we came from....i just want to say that i deserve to be here....
i see that the victim that confronted mr. vang...got fired up after telling mr.vang to leave but mr.vang refused to...therefore the white victim called him names...racial ones...if a single "no" could fire up the white victim....then what about a "Poom Poom...behind the back as u r leaving????? hmm...let's see....one thing the white man could of done instead of calling mr.vang names... is call the local authorities to come over and solve the damn problem...duh....he messed with the wrong person at the wrong time....u have to be smart especially when both of u have weapons on u.....if he thought twice before calling mr.vang names do u think this will occur???? maybe not...maybe it still could...the media all have the details all messed up....im lost...the victims that survived....im glad u guys survived...the victims that died...im very sorrie....but umm...like i said before if u mess with the wrong person at the wrong time then "oh well".....no one can do nothing about it no more....for chai vang...he's going to end up in prison probably for life so "oh well"...but the thing that im really trying to point out is that don't point ur fingers at chai vang...if u want to point fingers to chai vang....might as well point it towards ur people too b/c they too were involved in this tradegy....and they too were probably involved in some type of scene that led to the bloody murder...one more thing...i'm a hmong....
mr.vang...i'm proud of u.....
I just want to say that this bickering feud of who is responsible and who is not is getting ridiculous. I hope that man can learn from this experience.(which I doubt will happen) Regardless of who shot who first, the FACTS are 6 people are dead and one is in prison for their murders. It is a lose lose situation for both the Hmong community and the families of the victims.
After reading all the comments...I have to say ...you guys are pointing finger at one and another...instead one should be teach one and another how to get along and prevent furture problems that will escalated the issue. Non of you know the truth except the Chai Vang and the victims. So stop talking like you are there? all ya sound stupid. You didn't witness the crime...so stop...blog...and blog...like you know everything. Hate isn't solve this racial problem.

Would this incidentdraw this much attention if both of the shooting are the same race? Think about it? or If a white killing six Hmong, a Hmong killing 6 other Hmong, and a White killing 6 White..? Think about it. Got to understand other people view before yours is the correct one.

by the way...all ya sound uneducated and racist...keep it to your self.
In response to the last comment, you all read this. Calling me a racist is a cheap shot. My only point is that the guy was a psycho, and some cultural habits may have contributed to the massacre.

And dumbass: If 6 people were shot on any hunt in my state, it wouldn't matter if they were all Martians.

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Hi - You have a great blog. I have a webpage about free self defense I'd like you to visit. Here's the link
This man has been here for 20 years.How long before they learn the laws here. And his comment about this being the happiest day of his life, because he would not have to pay child support and mortage anymore, unreal.
And he also said we need to learn to communicate better, how can we when they dont learn our language.
Comment was also said, where they came from they can hunt wherever, whenever and whatever they wanted.
Well, they are here now, obey our laws. They had to give up their ways when they choose to come here.
They learn the welfare systems, why not the laws? Dont like it here?
Go back. And if the hunters would have killed Chai, the hmongs would also be yelling racist.
i love all the commenters above who claim they're not racist, yet make sweeping generalizations about the hmong: "if THEY done't understand..." this or that. incredible. that's the definition of being a racist - labeling a whole category of people with a single attribute. of course white americans don't have a clue what it's like to face racism everyday (ignored by store clerks, being taunted in school, labeled at work, stared at like you just fell of a spaceship, talked down to as if you're stupid). so i'm not surprised by the hypocrisy.
I dont get it, its like a bad talk about racial conflicts. You know what? It is Racist, it was a Crime, and Justice will be served. "SO JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU DAMN MOTHERFUCKING PEOPLE!" You have no sense what-so-ever. so SHUT UP! thank you for your time and please take a moment in silence and relize the TRUTH.
Dec 02, 2005
Somehow stumbled upon this....
Its wierd how one man can cause a stir up our emotions, stop saying its racism already ffs
Im from California, Hmong, student at UCD. With California being one of the majority-minority states, that is the minorities as a total have become majorities over whites, I don't experience much racism here. There is more prejudice towards class here. The media tends to sensationalize stories, what Mr. Vang did was a crime and if he was in CA I would advocate the death penalty for him.
Still you cannot deny that racism played a role in this tragedy. If you look back in the history of out country, every major event had to deal with race, class, or gender...and I mean every. The US is one of the most undemocratic industrialized nations today. The "founding fathers" did not advocate democracy, read up on the rhetoric of the Constitution to understand where this is coming from. We preach equality, but praise diversity at the same time....
Kinda rambled but my point is that: We, as a society, must look not at the content of Mr. Vang's case but the context as well. What are the causes? the environment?
Please understand that a few, whether they be Asian, White, or Black, don't constitute how all of us thinks and behave.
god damn what the fuck is going on here you talking about racist and this shit, you know all u should blame on, blame on the people who made gun in the first place and people who came up with racist words. yeah who be stupid just to say racist words. out of no where and say chank yea thats a racist word. man fucken word is just words. yea i might be hmong too but god damn this world is fucked up ur all fucked up, everyone fucked up. people killing eachother and this the most important highlight there is what the fuck man. care about ur self whats in the past is in the past leave it or it'll happen again. like people say history repeats itself. alight peace out.
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